Last Updated on September 12, 2013 by Jimson Lee
I’m going through the mailbag one question at a time.
In past Fireside Chats, I asked Derek Hansen about the Sprint Coach, Strength Coach & Physical Therapist Triad as well as How to Pick a Good Sprint Coach.
The next question is arranging your weight sessions around track practice.
Let’s assume you train at 5pm after work or school. Should you do your weights immediately after the running portion? This is my personal preference.
Or, in the morning?
If you do weights in the morning, the quality and quantity will depend if your running session within the next hour, or 6 hours later (with a mid-day nap!)
So many variables…. and then there is choosing what to do. Sets, reps, exercises, Olympic lifts, unilateral vs bilateral, weight loads…. all good questions for discussion! (see the weight training category for hundreds of articles on this topic)
Take a look at the video below.
Hi Jimson and Derek, I enjoyed the chat and appreciate the insight. I have three points of contention. First, Derek mentioned something that I hear a lot of Track & Field coaches throw around and I don’t believe it’s true. It has to do with the alleged superiority of power cleans/snatches over kettlebells due to the inherent loads used. Some of the joint moments in a 100lb kb swing might indeed match those of the 225lb clean, most probably the hips. The arced path of the kettlebell, the increased horizontal GRF’s, and the speeds must be taken into consideration, and though calculating joint moments, spinal loading, power, work, etc. is a complicated process that requires extensive labs and intelligent professors, we need to be patient and wait until a quality study examining swings vs. Oly variations is conducted in order to be sure about this topic.
Second, Derek mentioned that he believes that the Oly variations are the safer lifts. I personally have not found this to be the case. I feel that swings are the safer lift and the easier lift to teach. So I wouldn’t rule out KB swings just yet.
And third, Derek mentioned that he has not seen any research showing single leg superiority over double leg. Though there were no significant differences, a 2005 study by McCurdy et al (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705051) indicated that the effects were quite similar, but single leg might have a slight edge.
I’m definitely not trying to be accusatory or disrespectful as I have a ton of respect for you guys. But do you guys feel that Track & Field coaches can be a bit dogmatic? I would not predict huge differences between various types of programs, but it seems to me that many sprint coaches are more interested in preserving the sprint/squat/Oly lift methodology than promoting advances in sports science. Not that there is anything wrong with that approach, but there are certainly other approaches that could work well for various reasons.
I could be wrong though…
@Bret, I agree that Track coaches like me can be dogmatic, but I still follow the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” philosophy. Maybe I am old school, but if my guys run well, I can’t prove if it was the squats or Oly lifts that helped. or Single leg stuff. Charlie Francis quoted Ben Johnson doing 2 sets of 6 reps at 600lbs. He could obviously do more, but for safety reasons, they didn’t go higher. Should he have changed to single leg stuff? It was working for him, so why change it?
I should mention that in April when I shadowed Dennis Mitchell and Lance Brauman (on 2 different days), Lance’s group (i.e. Tyson Gay, Keston Bledham, etc) were doing traditional lifts and explosive lifts (like my program). On the other hand, Dennis’ group (i.e. Justin Gatlin, Churandy martina etc) moved to a new weight training facility where they were able to do more single leg stuff (yes, I made fun at the P90X on the last Fireside Chat)
I think weights should be a case by case example, but I am still convinced the track is where 80% of the focus should be.
Definitely no arguments there Jimson. My arguments are more about the biomechanics (joint torque requirements, etc.) of exercises. If you get the biomechanics right, then you can begin to speculate as to the training effects. But you’d then need good training studies to determine whether the theories hold weight. And it’s very hard to do training studies on advanced sprinters. Anyway, I definitely agree with what you wrote, and especially the importance of the track (80%). Cheers Jimson!
80% of total practice time or 80% of training load?
Good topic and one that has soooo many sides. I’ve been working on a post for my site on this…just anecdotal impressions from my own training. Will post soon.
Overall, great conversation/interview, but like Bret, I have several points of contention/conversation. And sorry for the long post…
First, you asked Derek about the lifting before or after and mentioned the John Smith crew doing their lifts at 7:30a (and running at 10am). Derek discusses how this might be for “warm up” possibilities. But that’s clearly not the case if you watch your Carmelita Jeter post (https://speedendurance.com/2012/10/24/carmelita-jeter-weight-training-sessions/). This is a full workout (not sure about intensity, but definitely not just a warm up). Also, Derek mentions that perhaps those coaches use “pre-workout” weights for Post-activation Potentiation. However, all the research I’ve read about PAP suggests the effect only lasts a few minutes. So, that wouldn’t really add up. I know Barry Ross (who I’m not a big fan of, as you may have seen on my blog — I think his approaches are okay) suggests doing weights before sprinting and his weight regiment always includes heavy deadlifts. Personally, I don’t like this at all. But Barry did tell me once that alternatively you could lift 2 hours after a running workout. Life, with a capital “L”, has dictated that I lift about two hours after my runs, and anecdotally that does seem to be working well.
Second, you discuss unilateral lifts as being “more specific” and thus not really appropriate for track weight workouts. While I agree with your general thesis, I don’t think you can lump all unilateral work as “more specific”. Gray Cook uses unilateral work to fix imbalances, which he sees as the “most general” level of strength. My personal unilateral work is also geared towards “more general”. When working on these “Gray Cook” style imbalances, one thing I’ve notice is the small stabilization muscles at my joints are really active. This seems to be another benefit to doing unilateral work, which is missing in bilateral work. Derek uses an example of a one handed snatch, which I’d agree is potentially more dangerous. But things like Single Leg Deadlifts and Piston Sqauts seem like excellent exercises for imbalances and stabilization work (not max strength). Pfaff talks about his four stages of physiological advancement, which are Stimulation, Adaptation, Stabilization, and Actualization. He doesn’t mean “stabilization” as joint stabilization, but I do think that joint stabilization is part of his “Stabilization and Actualization” phases; that the body needs those small muscles to get used to the new found strength and power before the athlete can safely (without injury) break to the next plateau. This is totally my belief and has no scientific backing.
Per Kettlebells, I’ve used them a little, but have considered adding them to my routine in two ways. First, as an additional “Rate of Force Generation” type lift. I love Cleans and Snatch for this, but I do think Kettlebell Swings could be added because they have specific differences that make them interesting. The difference is the eccentric loading you get, especially when you use resistance bands or a partner (who pushes the kettlebell down). The RKC guys all says how great this is and how this or that study shows it’s superior. I haven’t spent the time to read the studies and haven’t yet incorporated it into my own workouts. But it does make sense and I plan to try it out.
The second potential use for Kettlebells is for PAP. I haven’t tried this yet, but I’m wondering if something like a Kettlebell Swing could initiate a PAP response. And if it can, then I could imagine them as part of a track workout. Again, this is just my musings. I’d love to hear if anyone is doing this. Kettlebells are definitely kind of a “new” thing, so I’m skeptical. But I’m also not willing to dismiss them until I’ve tried.
The John Smith example has athletes lifting such low loads that I would argue that they are simply getting a general conditioning (not max strength) effect that moderately stimulates the body prior to their speed work. The lifts in the Jeter video are so light and at moderate to low velocities (perhaps because their technique is relatively poor) that it is not providing an adaptive effect with respect to max strength or power. Thus, it is only providing a general fitness and conditioning effect. This is why I referred it to a warm-up activity — because this is really all they are getting out of it. They are warmed-up in a general sense when they step on the track. This makes their track warm up easier, so one could characterize the weights as a warm-up to their warm-up (i.e. they are getting fluffed up for their warm-up). With my athletes, on race days we will have them get up early in the morning and do sub-maximal, bodyweight work in the hotel (i.e. squats, drills, jumps, push-ups, general calisthenics) as a general warm-up activity to help wake-up the body and mind. Then, when the athletes do their competition warm-up at 1:00pm, they find it much easier to warm up with less effort. So, while many may not classify the early morning work as a warm up, I would argue that it is a preliminary warm-up activity. And, the intensity isn’t much different that what was shown in the Jeter weightlifting video.
Unilateral (or specific) weightlifting training works better on untrained individuals. This is why it is popular in the personal training community. It has a better peripheral training effect. However, the loads and velocities must be very high to create a central adaptation. People like kettlebell swings. But I would rather have athletes throwing these implements (much like has been done by T&F throwers for decades) as the acceleration and velocities will be significantly higher, creating more central stress. Just be careful of where they land.
Good points. Tx. Though I’m not sure Carmelita would call it light — the way she carries on about hating cleans. :)
True about throwing these implements, though that’s not always convenient and it’s much more time consuming given the retrieval process. I wonder if overhead shot would cause a PAP effect. I recall Pfaff talking about an informal study they did where they tested their female sprinters and found a perfect correlation with their 100m time and their distance in the overhead shot throw.
One of the bigger issues is the misinterpretation of the weight turning vs strength/resistance training. The question of before or after is based a combination of things: athletes adaptation, the coach’s style of training, time of year,etc. There is a big lack of information given to the athletes in the “how to” and “why” the particular exercises are done and when. Unfortunately, in today’s time you CANNOT get all you need on the track and “strength training” is not complimentary but a vital part to an athletes success. Your “basic” platform lifts do not and are not the only way to get the nec strength values needed to achieve quality results. As in, the kettlebell swings are a great exercise for the athlete to understand the vertical hip motion. There is information now that can show imbalances in force application in all planes and those cannot be addressed by default. The problem is everybody wants to cover strength training with these blanket statements and blanket programs. (One size does not fit all) As much attention is paid to the technical aspect, so should the technical aspect of the strength portion. Simply stating, that despite how much you drill and repeat if you do not have the strength values to execute and maintain you will not progress.
In conclusion, I think that we in some cases have limited, while other have over exaggerated the importance, implementation and application of strength training. What worked for one at some point does not work for all, programs need to be sport specific but athlete driven based on their needs and circumstances.
I believe it is naive to group “track coaches” under the same categorization. As in any field, there are good track coaches and not so good track coaches. I would say that the bad track coaches far outweigh the good ones (unfortunately). However, my comments are based on my knowledge of the practices of the top sprint coaches in the history of the world and my 10 years working closely with Charlie Francis. This is combined with my experience in working with sprinters since 1987 (25 years) of all ages and abilities from young kids right up to world record holders and Olympic medallists. As Jimson knows (and has experienced), you have to go out and talk to these coaches, compare their approaches, see their results and try it out for yourself with actual elite sprinters (over years of training) before you can speak credibly on the subject (i.e. walk a mile in my shoes – or for that matter 10,000 miles).
Charlie Francis had a great story from the mid-1980’s when Ben Johnson was at his peak. He was approached by Paul Chek who told him that he could “fix” Ben Johnson’s hips. Charlie replied, “You’ve never seen Ben train, you have no idea what we are doing for training, yet you feel you can step in and offer advice? There’s nothing wrong with Ben’s hips. He has the best hips in the business. He’s the world record holder. And, you will never work with him because you have no experience or credibility working with elite sprinters.” Be careful of who you seek your advice from. Look at their experience and who they have worked with (hopefully it is world class sprinters) before you assume they are experts in this area.
I do appreciate Randy’s comments as he is correct in saying that strength training is not limited to weights. However, I would like to point out that speed athletes who have not used weights for their strength training have resorted to plyometrics in various forms and a combination of hill sprints and sled pulls (moderate weight). This was common for the East German women’s program in the 1980’s. Another notable sprint athlete who did not use weights was obviously Carl Lewis.
The million dollar questions is “Are weights required to run fast?” I’m currently writing a chapter for a Human Kinetics publication on performance training for sport. In this chapter, I go into great depth about the value and short-falls of weightlifting for speed development. The bottom line is that no matter how good your strength training program is (yes, even if you are using Kettlebells), if it isn’t integrated with a good sprint program and proper planning, it really doesn’t matter. You can have what you consider a great strength program and still get your ass handed to you by skinny guys who have a good sprint coach. But I would argue that a good strength program is one that complements the speed program – not interfere with it.
Just look at videos of some of the top sprinters – including Carmelita Jeter and Usain Bolt – doing power cleans on YouTube. Very low weight lifted in a completely horrendous fashion. Yet, they are among the fastest humans in history. You will not decipher the secret to their success (unless you are Victor Conte ;-) until you go to the track and watch them sprint over months of training. I remember talking to a non-track trainer who saw Donovan Bailey sprint in training during the peak of his career. I asked him, “What did you see?” He said, “Not much. They did their warm-up, which took a long time. Then they did about 5-6 sprints with long breaks and then they left. Nothing special and actually pretty boring.” What he didn’t realize was that those 5-6 sprints could have very well been near world record pace at an unprecedented intensity. This is where the desired adaptations are taking place. Not in the weight room.
Until you actually work with sprinters day-in and day-out over a minimum of 10 years, you will not actually understand the process of making them faster. There are so many web sites out there with people claiming to be speed experts, but with no tangible experience in working with sprinters for the thousands of hours necessary to understand what is required. Taking an athlete from 10.20 seconds down another tenth of a second or more is a tedious process of subtly adjusting training parameters. Anyone who thinks that switching them from bilateral exercises to unilateral exercises will yield the necessary improvements on the track does not know what they are talking about.
Note that this study was done with “untrained” subjects…
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The effects of short-term unilateral and bilateral lower-body resistance training on measures of strength and power.
McCurdy KW, Langford GA, Doscher MW, Wiley LP, Mallard KG.
Source
Department of Kinesiology and Physical Education, Valdosta State University, Valdosta, Georgia 31698, USA. kmccurdy@valdosta.edu
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of short-term unilateral resistance training (UL) and bilateral resistance training (BL) with free weights on several tests of unilateral and bilateral lower-body strength and power in men and women. Thirty-eight untrained men and women (mean body mass 78.3 +/- 21.47 kg; age 20.74 +/- 2.6 years) completed the study. The groups trained 2 days per week for 8 weeks with free weights and 2 days per week for 5 of the 8 weeks with plyometric drills. The resistance-training program consisted of a progression from 3 sets of 15 repetitions at 50% of the subject’s predicted 1 repetition maximum (1RM) to 6 sets of 5 repetitions at 87% 1RM. Training volume and intensity were equal for each group. The free-weight squat was used to measure unilateral and bilateral strength. Power was measured by the Magaria-Kalamen stair-climb test and the unilateral and bilateral vertical jump test. Analysis of covariance was used to analyze differences between men and women and the interaction of group and gender. Pretest scores were used as the covariate. The UL group improved more than the BL group on the unilateral vertical jump height (p = 0.001) and relative power (p = 0.013). After adjusting for pretest differences, the improved scores on all tests, except for the unilateral squat, were similar between the men and the women. No significant interactions on all tests were found for the men or women comparison between training groups. These results indicate that UL and BL are equally effective for early phase improvement of unilateral and bilateral leg strength and power in untrained men and women.
Derek, I have no experience training sprinters. But I study biomechanics. While my lack of experience definitely limits my expertise, I have good expertise/insight in other areas, for which I believe I could be of value to sprint coaches if they were to respect what I had to say. For example, Stu McGill doesn’t need to train powerlifters to offer insight into helping a powerlifter use better form to protect the spine.
I certainly see your point. My all-time favorite book was by Charlie Francis – The CFTS. I have the utmost respect for him and study his work diligently. And the Chek story you mentioned was absurd and certainly illustrates many problems in our industry, assuming it’s true (which I’m sure it is).
I learn a lot from the various online Track & Field coaches. But to be honest, I have found that the vast majority of online track & field coaches to be overly dogmatic and dismissive of various techniques.
For instance, I once saw a blogpost where you criticized me for my thoughts on force vectors and training the various vectors for maximum power development in all directions. I believe that you were dismissive and disrespectful in that post. And how any educated coach could ignore force vectors in power development is beyond me – it’s basic Physics. For the record, I have never been disrespectful of anything I’ve seen you write, and I value your knowledge and experience. But this isn’t about me (or my lack of experience in training sprinters), it’s about what you stated in your video in relation to biomechanics and research.
Do you believe that heavy kb swings could outmatch the hip extension torque output found in kettlebell lifts due to the differences in biomechanics? Have you ever tried a heavy kb swing?
After reading the link I sent (by a good researcher), does it change the way you think about single leg training?
Trust me, I’m all about squats, Oly lifts, and sprints, but I believe that other lifts such as single leg lifts and kb swings can provide much value (insofar as strength training can indeed provide a small boost in sprint training performance – but like you I could argue against it). And I definitely don’t think that my biomechanical investigations trump ten+ years of experience in training sprinters. I look to you guys for expertise in the specifics of sprint training.
Regards, BC
I’m sorry, but with all due respect, if you downplay or discount the importance of weight lifting, I find it hard to digest any thing recommended for speed training. Using examples of freaks of nature like the fastest individuals in history doesn’t prove the point. Increased strength = increased speed. Nothing accomplishes that like maximum innervation, which weight lifting, especially Oly lifts, best accomplish.
This is definitely a very good topic of discussion that i would like to lightly chime in on from the perspective of an elite athlete who was self coached. I would like to first say that their are more than one way to skin a cat. I think a lot of Derek’s points of interest are extremely misguided and lost deeply rooted in archaic tradition. I am also a huge fan of Bret and studies on Glute training. I think the first thing that we have to look at is durability and consistency in the athlete and does the program or training allow them to achieve that. Therefore, I lean heavily on biomechanical and structural stability. This being said means that I don’t fully agree with a coach when he says thats just the way an athlete is. That implies to me that the coach himself isn’t adequately studied in biomechanics and human locomotion. Aside os being a 2x Olympian I was also fotrunate enough to spend sufficient timing training with the likes of Dan Pfaff, Tom Tellez, Randy Huntington and rooks Johnson. I have had a first hand look and actual experience in some of the most highly regarded programs out there. Each of the programs were different but the same in many ways. 1) with bad technique, poor posture, and inefficient mechanics you just cant get it done. If you are able the risk and harm that you subject your body to will eventually end your career early. Yes you may be able to mask this with abnormal amounts of strength in the squat and bench but it will takes it toll on the skeletal muscle system. Also keeping in mind that drugs allow you to get away with a lot bad mechanics and technical faults. 2) Strength training in all these camps was of high priority along with functional strength and event/task specific mastery. Being a jumper I understand the importance plyometrics and bounding, but I ensure you that along will not get you all that you desire. You get to point where you cannot master the technical skills nor handle the physical requirements of your desired goals without sufficient strength. I agree with Bret in regards to kettle ball swings and their specific application to creating hip thrust and speed. I am a huge fan of ball throws for that specific reason. their ability to mimmic the mechanics of the throws makes them an optimal choice for low impact high quality hip speed explosive training. 3) every one of these coaches also stressed the importance of force application and more specifically single leg force application as related to ground force application. My theory and teaching was always that everything in track and field starts and stops on a straight leg. Thus meaning that their is an emphasis and requirement to have sufficient strength, neuro-muscular coordination, postural stability and balance in single leg movements. I think one of the biggest things that people misunderstand who are stuck in the dogmatic way of doing things is that the glutes and hip flexor/extensors are part of the core training. I boggles me that science has proven that the largest muscle group in the body is the gluteus muscle group, but yet coaches and athletes refuse to train that region. I guarantee that with specific glute training the traditional bench, squat, and power clean max lifts of all athletes will improve significantly. looking at it through the kinetic chain of movements it goes in this order. As the glutes contract this pushes the hips and center of mass forward. This action in return lengthens the hip extensor. therefore the thigh/quad is driven down and back thus allowing the athlete to apply maximum force to the ground while achieving both horizontal and vertical components. What you then discover is that to better transfer these forces while in a single leg stance as the swing free leg is repositioned the athlete needs sufficient strength in the vastus and leteral medial to stabilize and support. Thus the movements continue to the gastroc/soleus as well as the foot and ankle joint. With all that being said I identify with having a solid well rounded program that consist of both pre and post workout strength movements. Beforehand one should look to stimulate the CNS and prime movers of the training requirements. Post workout you should go in and find your core muscle lifts that best support strengthening and enhancing your atheletes ability to maximize full potential and do the least amount of harm. As a side note the use of ems as a pre-activation before workout or from rep to rep is a wonderful way of getting post tetanic potentiation.
KB good point.
Would you say that deadlifts best address what you explain here regarding the posterior chain?
I don’t think that my athletes would mind training that early if that was the workout…..
My feeling is that a stable stance is needed if you are aiming to produce maximal neural drive (MU recruitment and MU discharge rate) of knee extensors and plantar flexors. The trajectory of a Kettlebell swing or a one legged squat suggested by Bret Contreras and many others is clearly creating an imbalance that are hampering neural activity in those muscle groups. Not hard to find support that instability do cause a lower EMG activity in comparison to stable stance in the literature but I don’t have time to look up appropriate papers at the moment though…
I have not jumped on the functional training band wagon yet. I think that there is definitely room for a lot of the exercise they are advocating but I’m still pretty convinced that nothing we do in the gym is specific to anything that we do on the track in speed strength events….
Hakan – this particular comment blows me away and makes me question anything and everything you are doing. ” but I’m still pretty convinced that nothing we do in the gym is specific to anything that we do on the track in speed strength events….”
When looking at strength training in the gym you have to look at what your doing with consideration to specific needs and time of the year in program. Of course in the early fall to winter the gym is designed to create muscle endurance then maximum strength. However after that when you switch to power/elastic development phase all of your focus should be on (ROFD) rate of force development. If you are not familiar with this i encourage you to see my writings under the jumps section. Think about this,the most functional piece of training equipment in the gym that most directly assist sprinters and jumpers is often overlooked. The basic jump rope; which along with skipping is the the first 2 form of plyometrics. I’ve personally tested the ground reaction forces of sprinting – walking- jogging in the lab of Dr. Peter Weyand. In these test we have discovered that the forces of single leg jump roping and jump roping in which you step over the knee parallel the forces of moderate sprint performances. with this being said i challenge you to do one leg jump roping and you will find it far more specific and functional than do the traditional calf raises. when you take into to account body weight, ground force 2-4x body weight and ground reaction time you will find jump rope training far more advantageous. Couple this with specifics of the motion of the foot/ankle joint when in full support stance and extension you can exceed what happens on the track. Taking into account the speed of the revolutions of the spinning rope. You will also get exploited and find out that everything you were taught about landing on the ball of the foot is a crock of s*$t. Likewise there are several exercises like the depth and depth reactive jumps that exceed the forces we incur outside on the track in regards to rate of force development and ground contact time that are very specific. Likewise the forces are extremely elastic and model the sequences and firing orders of sprinting and jumping (isometric-eccentric-concentric). I have written several articles that address these topics and i an willing to provide both the literature and video to support that are matched up with all of the force force readings.
Dear Mr Kenta Bell, first I must apologize for my post that was written in a rush and I totally understand if I confused you. That fact and my poor English probably made things even worse.
No, I haven’t read your book that I’m sure is very interesting but I’m not totally ignorant and I do understand that training is a series of events that is necessary to achieve the final goal; faster times. The duration and content of the periods has of course take individual characteristics and needs into account but that is a very large topic, too large for this message.
I’m not surprised to hear of your force plate findings that the forces recorded in rope jumping and skipping are similar to sprinting and way closer to sprinting than the other exercise you mentioned, traditional calf raises. BUT: We have done many biomechanical pilot studies in our lab exploring sprinting and jumping activities and we have never seen anything that even remotely resemblance the force production times of <90ms seen in elite sprinters. Rope jumping might be specific to sprinting in terms of peak and average forces BUT and that is a big BUT, not on terms of force production time and therefore not specific to sprinting. If you have data that contradict my statement of contact times in rope jumping I would love to have a look at them.
You are writing “there are several exercises like the depth and depth reactive jumps that exceed the forces we incur outside on the track in regards to rate of force development and ground contact time that are very specific”.
I partly agree, the forces developed in depth and rebound jumping (if that is what you mean with reactive jumps) does exceed the forces seen in maximal velocity sprinting. BUT contact time is WAY longer and due to that fact it is my belief that they are not specific to sprinting.
This doesn’t mean that rope jumping have a place in the preparation of sprinters. We use them in periods because they are great introduction to more serious jumping, but specific? Not in my book…
Sometimes we need to overload the organism to create supercompensation. Depth and rebound jumping is a great example of exercises that can be great stressors since the force production are high and even extreme in some cases, but specific to max velocity sprinting, no I don’t thinks so.
It is impossible to give straight suggestions how sprinters should develop strength. Strength one of the most potent training regimes known but it is also extremely multifaceted and as with a lot of thinks, it all depends who you are training and why.
Looking at Carmelita Jeter gym work clips here on speedendurance.com I can’t help to once again think that a very talented sprinter that might possess 70% fast twitch fiber or more doesn’t have to worry much when it come to the issue of strength development. On the contrary, hypertrophy of his muscles will produce larger muscle cells of predominately fast fibers. If he is combining his strength training with high intensity sprinting in a proper way, he will develop power and specific neuromuscular pathways that will improve his sprinting times in a pretty safe manner.
What about resistance training if you are less gifted? Then my belief is that you have be more much more careful with hypertrophic resistance training and to a greater extent target fast MU. In my book that means high intensity resistance training in the gym in combination with plyometric activities (jumping and throwing). The problem with such a set up is that it will be more taxing on CNS making parallel sprint training more difficult. It goes with out saying that with this type of training it is easier to pick up injuries.
Sorry Mr Bell, you haven’t convinced me anything we do in the gym is specific to max velocity sprinting. That doesn’t exclude any of the traditional exercises used by most athletes though. Unfortunately some of the training that has been popularized by the functional training mob lately at least in my part of the world can be described more as circus stunts rather than effective training.
Strength training is indeed complex but feel that the trick is to know when, why and how to use a certain training regime though…
Are you splitting hairs or being highly anal about defining training terms?
You can’t only run full speed all out alone to train for sprinting.
You better being do that for sure but you have to train all 5 biomotorabilities which requires training to improve absolute strength, power, force, etc.
Oly lifts, static lifts, throws, etc, are necessary elements even if not “specific” as you seem to narrowly define it.
Good conversation guys! I didn’t see these until now.
Hakan – what you mentioned about max muscle activation in bilateral stance is not supported in the literature. I do agree that stability is paramount for max glute/quad/ham/calf activation, but single and double leg exercises are “stable” in different ways (squats are stable in the frontal plane, Bulgarian split squats are stable in the sagittal plane). There are two studies comparing lower body EMG during squats and split squats and they’re pretty close in all muscles tested. And there is a study showing that split squats can lead to greater hip extension torque due to the biomechanics of the lift.
I’m not saying that one is better than the other, just that 1) both lead to similar levels of muscle activation and torque in the lower extremities, 2) they’ve been shown to improve performance to similar degrees, 3) there is more than one way to skin a cat.
What irks me is when coaches who have never employed heavy kettlebells or single leg movements suggest that they’re not safe (or that they’re more dangerous than Oly or squat movements), when coaches make stuff up – that beginners do better with single leg movements (personally I think beginners do better with double leg movements and advanced do better with single leg movements), and when coaches arrogantly assume that their way is the only way and anything else is inferior (having never experimented or tested various methodologies).
This is rampant in the Track & Field online world. I’ve met plenty of Track & Field coaches who were highly intelligent and scientific-minded, but the online ones I’ve found to be dogmatic and unscientific.
I’m happy that there are indeed folks out there such as yourself who conduct experiments, etc.
Just my two cents!
@Bret I think there is support in the literature regarding possible lower muscular activity in prime movers and possible higher in stabilizers when working on unstable conditions. But you are right, these studies are comparing stable conditions to unstable conditions and has not examined and compared bi- to unilateral conditions.
I still have a feeling that the neural activity of prime movers in unilateral exercises without support is lower than in a bilateral exercise under stable condition.
Practical empirical experience by some colleagues and myself has in my mind been verified by some of our experiments. We have done pilots with force plates, linear encoders, angle goniometers, electromyography etc. and the results has backed up our experience and opinion that it is difficult to work in an explosive fashion (with a possible high neural drive) on one leg with a barbell resting on the shoulders.
That doesn’t mean that I think that unilateral exercises are a waste of time, on the contrary! Different types of Lunges, Bulgarian squats, Spilt squats, Step Ups, Hip Thrusts etc. are all great exercises for sprinters since they are targeting the hips extensors and knee flexors in a great fashion. Muscle groups that in my opinion are some of the most important muscle groups in sprinting. But that I guess is nothing I have to convince you about Bret since you have more or less devoted your entire great webpage http://bretcontreras.com to this concept.
My experience is that these unilateral exercises meant to target hamstrings and gluteus are more hypertrophic than neural if you compare them to tradition weightlifting and bilateral squatting though.
If I try to connect to the original question of this thread “Weight Lifting Before or After My Track Practice” my personal experience is that hypertrophic training fits in better post that pre sprinting mainly due to the risk of injury. In comparison hypertrophic training I feel that neural training (max or power) is easier to fit in pre sprinting but it depends on the intensity of the strength training in question and the sprinting that is following.
In general I feel that maximal loading close to 1RM more so seem to disturb coordination that power training with lesser loading but in periods when we euphemize speed I still prefer to develop strength post speed regardless of the loading in the weight room since speed and power in many aspects are stressing the same systems.
But as Fredrick the Great, King of Prussia once said:
“In my kingdom, everyone can go to heaven in his own fashion” –
When I did my EMG experiments I found that glutes do much better under stable situations. For example, bilateral hip thrusts greatly outperformed unilateral hip thrusts even when loading was used (but I didn’t test other people with this so it could be due to my hip anatomy, etc.). Also glutes don’t work well with things like stability ball leg curls but do better with slideboard (but hamstring activity is similar). With squats vs. lunges vs. RFESS, glute activation is remarkably similar (as is quad). Would like to see more things published in this area.
Agree that power RT could come before sprint training as the lighter loads don’t quite fatigue the body like heavy/hypertrophy RT does. So either sprint then explosive then hypertrophy, or explosive then sprint then hypertrophy.
Great discussion Hakan! Love the quote!!! Much respect, BC
Jimson,
Quick question. In the offseason what is your take on P90X, P90x-2, Insanity and other workout programs offered by Beachbody? I personally enjoy them and like mixing it up.
Thanks,
Fred
These Fireside chats and Mailbags are just what the Dr. ordered. Keep them going b/c they bring out some good people on all sides of the subject.
When coaches get together at the EOY or Season for example…it’s pretty laid back and we talk about what we did to get our results. Not all results are created equal. Things hardly ever go as planned as we all know and so we have to work around those issues. It’s nice to hear from others about how they went about it and what brought up this work around…
Two things we may have all noticed is the better ‘timing systems’ and video study being used today than ever before. Athletes with their ever advancing Coaches and assistants are finding that they are sprinting faster than ever before in practice..ideal run-up lengths, relaxation, etc. and at the Meets. Priority # 1. Many of your interviews with coaches using freelap have said the same thing.
Faster times in practice…Coach and athlete are taking care of a lot of the strength req. already no? Perhaps another fireside chat?
I myself have given many mini presentations to Friends/Coaches who understand what I am trying to say and because they are a lot more experienced than I am at giving presentations at Seminars…they tear my ass a new one…b/c of one little thing I said didn’t come out right, or may seem to confuse…it helps me out a tremendously. So for Coaches to put it out there on Video or by writing in….thanks for having the courage to do so.
I enjoy learning from you all i.e. Jimson, Derek, Kenta, Henk, Bret, and others.
**I am glad I finally clicked on the link in my daily email I recieved from speedendurance.com today. I usually read it in my email only and never see the comments because of it.
Discussions like these is what makes this site so great
I think there is some accuracy to what Bret says about track coaches. But I would also say that this is simply about establishing a training inventory of exercises( unilateral, bilateral, vector specific, etc…) and making the best possible decision given the circumstances.
I think the dismissiveness may arise not from the exercises but from the claims associated with the exercises. I imagine most, if not all, sprint coaches would be up for a journey to see the holy grail but, the fact is, it just doesn’t exist.
Carl Lewis : he did lift weights. Personally spoke to Tom Tellez regarding this fact. He didn’t like lifting them and the year he did the most lifting and bulked up the most, he didn’t run well as in previous seasons, so Tom scaled back the program. Be careful of what people say with off hand comments as they might not know the facts.
This is very true. Coach Tellez mentioned the same thing to me about Carl lifting weights as well. When I spent time with Tellez i did a lot of Plyometric box drills. For strength improvement specific to running we would run stadium steps, push a shopping cart loaded with weight and run a lot hills. He is very big on technical strength runs, foot placement, and vertical force application. Being that I am a jumper he did prescribe certain lifts for me in the weight room as well.
For you guys with insight in the training of Carl Lewis: Is it true that the year that CL decided to concentrate on sprinting alone and consequently more or less did not long jump; 1993, was one of his worst years in terms of sprinting? The talk is that 1993 was also the year when they decided to put a lot more emphases on weight lifting and drastically reduce plyometrics?
I can’t understand why they would have bulked him up. That shouldn’t be the purpose of weight training. There will be some hypertrophy, but it should be avoided as much as possible.
Weight training should focus on increased strength, power and force, not body building!
Great points by all with agreement of 80% of the focus should be on the track. If you want to be fast you have to run fast in practice. The weight room can be important but athletes in the 60’s were running low 10s in the 100 and 43-44s in the 400 without the weight room. Even recently, Kim Collins does not use weight training and still running at an elite level at 36 years old.
With improvements and focus of weight training we do see sprinters gain muscle size and power to break world records. The problem is when the shift of focus emphasizes more in the weight room and less track workout. Increasing the load with poor form may lead to more muscle and power but lead to injuries. Examples include Usain Bolt hamstring and back ailments the last two years. Bolt’s muscle mass and strength has increased but his injuries limited his ability to break his records set two years ago. Asafa Powell has similar injuries in the hamstring, back, and groin. While LaShawn Merritt pulled out of the 400 with his bad hamstring during the past Olympic Games. A coach must monitor muscle mass gain because it is not an advantage if you can’t make it to starting line. Too much strength in one muscle can lead to slight changes in stride length, rhythm and increased weight gain that creates more force placed upon the body. Too many changes to a program and a sprinter may not be able to adjust quickly.
If you look at Carmelita Jeter’s weight room video there are some observations that should be noted. You can’t really tell what time of year it is because the weather is the same every day in Southern California however she chimes in at the end of the video that she’s going to the park to do hills which mostly likely means that it is in fall or winter. Derek was correct stating that the weights were pretty light considering she runs 10.6-7s. Those cleans and front squats were with bumper plates. Comparing her weights used during her leg press of 180 lbs, I speculate the cleans were about 75-85 lbs. Even here weights with leg curls and leg extension were pretty light considering most men lifting the same amount of weight can’t even run 13 seconds in the 100. Her only unilateral exercise was lunges using 25lbs in each hand. Her form was not great, torqueing her back. If the weight was higher, the sloppy form and torque could have too much stress on the back, groin, knees, hamstring, etc. leading to injuries. John Smith knows his athletes and adjusts things accordingly to create just enough stimuli to have his athletes improve. It is when we see a high school or college athlete emphasize the weight room too much. Their thinking is if a little pepper tastes good with their steak maybe he/she should dump the whole container of pepper on it and it will taste great!
Personally, I do like the weight room before the sprint workout because it preps the muscles and CNS before a sprint workout. Any muscles that are weak can be quickly identified and strengthen in a pre-hab work. If the muscle is still too weak you can forgo any intense speed work to prevent injuries and do a different workout. We all know athletes pretend to be ok and tough it out but their strength while lifting and body language can indicate that they are not ready to race. Kenta makes great note that there are numerous ways to skin a cat because all athletes are different. Bret’s research on glute training has many sprint coaches looking at the entire posterior kinetic chain because you can’t ignore any muscles while trying to get faster. Kb swings with Olympic lifts can be put into a program as long as the coach properly balances training protocol to improve speed and keep the athlete healthy.
I was only talking to Tom on what he did for strength & conditioning and he mentioned this specific case with Carl Lewis. Im not aware of other more specific elements and detailed scheduling of his program sorry. As Hakan indicates he was a big fan of vertical piston action of leg movement driving up and down with the hips being the engine driving motion. He did favour appropriate plyo work in his program at various times. Another anecdote he mentioned was that he rarely scheduled more than 90% intensity in training as the squad was so competitive between each other that the risk of injury became too high as they tried to outdo each other.
Carl Lewis : The conversations I had with Tom were a few years ago amongst talking about many thing but I believe the gist was this … they didn’t deliberately “bulk” him up, they did more weight training to get him as strong as possible. This however had the effect of a slight muscle mass increase and he had a relatively poorer season that year. Tom had a very good understanding of power to weight ratio and his squad would undergo a careful diet program to be as lean but as strong as possible for peak competitions.
Certainly correlation between max strength is best for initial acceleration. For maximum velocity not so much. The best training here is actual sprint technique and running fast at maximum intensity with (flys, ins and outs, etc) and plyometrics so as to be able to develop maximum power in the shortest time during the limited 70-80ms contact time.
Using gear like Fusion’s jump mat with biofeedback mode can teach athletes what it feels like to have both a short contact time with strong impulse force. Almost impossible to do without such technology. Plyometrics work should be varied also with a mixture of fast SSC (less than 120ms contact time) and slower SSC (relatively speaking) around 150-180ms contact time – but generating more force.
http://fusionsport.com/products/smartjump
Carl Lewis : That’s not what I said. Read carefully – he did more weight training and this had the natural and expected consequence of hypertrophy – not that the aim was to bulk up! The conversations I had with Tom were a few years ago amongst talking about many things but I believe the gist was this … they didn’t deliberately “bulk” him up, they did more weight training to get him as strong as possible. This however had the effect of a slight muscle mass increase and he had a relatively poorer season that year. Tom had a very good understanding of power to weight ratio and his squad would undergo a careful diet program to be as lean but as strong as possible for peak competitions. Tom was a pretty smart guy and worked with his sport science team all the time to review everything that was going on. That didn’t mean that they didn’t experiment. How do you know what will work with an individual athlete until you try it? Slight variations in the annual program may shave off a few hundreths of a second which is all you are looking for at that level.
Certainly correlation between max strength is best for initial acceleration. For maximum velocity not so much. The best training here is actual sprint technique and running fast at maximum intensity (flys, ins and outs, etc) and plyometrics so as to be able to develop maximum power in the shortest time during the limited 70-80ms contact time.
Using gear like Fusion’s jump mat with biofeedback mode can teach athletes & current coaches what it feels like to have both a short contact time with strong impulse force. Almost impossible to do without such technology. Plyometrics work should be varied also with a mixture of fast SSC (less than 120ms contact time) and slower SSC (relatively speaking) around 150-180ms contact time – but generating more force. The tools and our knowledge keep getting better which is why times are continuing to drop.
http://fusionsport.com/products/smartjump
Gentlemen, here is a query out of left field: just curious… Have any of you ever visited “West Side Barbell” site and read any of Louie Simmons thoughts? His work is to create the greatest power lifters in the world, which he does… but sometimes it is stated that his lifters are as fast as any world class sprinter for thirty meters! Bold claim. Then of course they are surpassed, well… because they’re not sprinters!
However it might be perfect training regimen for pole vaulters (?) as their approach / run-up is within that range and then they must be incredibly ballistic.
Just to add more to your query, here’s an article I once read about westside for athletes:
http://www.sbcoachescollege.com/articles/Powerpoints/WestsideforAthletes-cresseysite.pdf
For my core lifts, I currently follow a similar different powerlifter plan called Wendler 5-3-1. Here’s a good summary to it (however, I recently swapped out squats for cleans):
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html
Research on complex or post activation training is quite mixed. And I feel we have a long way to understand what is anywhere close to optimal regarding sets, reps, loading and time of exercise before competition. And variation between individuals is more marked in this area also making it more difficult to program.
The perennial debate between olympic lifting vs power lifting is and will be an ongoing debate. I feel that bilateral lifts and slower strength lifts (like deadlifts and squats) are better for assisting initial acceleration and power (olympic) and unilateral lifts and plyometrics are better for maximum velocity. Quite easy to make rear foot elevated split squats a plyometric exercise.
As always the intelligent selection & sequence of exercises within a session and the progression of exercises over a longer period is as important as anything else. As is the reduction of overall load for peak events – maintaining intensity but reducing volume.
I have seen some quite amazing results from research on EMS and this looks to be a very productive area of focus in the future.
Other research I have seen indicates that shorter warmups are generally better that longer – which highlights the importance of selecting the best and event specific warmup exercises for competition. In training – general mobility, coordination, injury prevention, etc are important to train in addition to general and specific work capacity and energy systems development.
The concept of training while fatigued (once initial skill acquisition has been patterned), useful in team sports where games go for extended periods is much less useful in sprints where optimal neural firing and quality / speed of movement is of prime importance.
And not mixing energy systems is critical also. You wouldn’t do a long, heavy strength session before a neural acceleration or max velocity session.
Hey “Sprint 42” specifically, and all others too… thanks for the insightful thoughts and your willingness to share: powerful stuff and much appreciated. Better than any weekend “clinic”.
This is absolutely….wicked! having great minds, coaches, experimentalists, scholars and other school of thoughts come together is wonderful, i just wish athletes (both young and old) and other coaches can openly share their thoughts and experience to us all like this site has. I am blessed today. I am a vet runner (40) of only 2 years running and LJ experience and acute GLUTE injuries of about 12 months; a consultant recently treated me with prolotherapy injections – i think it’s slowly working. It takes 8-12weeks to heal i hear
My question to you great minds is this. What do i do next or start with to make my glute stronger to avoid injuries. Do i follow Kenta Bell’s Plyometric exercises or do i follow Steve’s 5 biomotorabilities which requires training to improve absolute strength, power, force, or is it Håkan Andersson, Donato, Bret Hansen or Derek’s (superiority of power cleans/snatches over kettlebells) pointers. I am lost here as this is way over my head, yet your input will do me and so many athletes (especially Vets) out there the power of good.
You all can try and help us Amateurs to be better by learning from your ways. We can’t do without your knowledge and the enthusiasm that you have for the sport that i am beginning to love. Please use it wisely and…pay it forward. We wait patiently…
Jimson – thx for this blog. We wait to receive you in England when next you travel.
Mad Manny
@Manny, in the New Year, I hope to start a “live radio” program where I can do a Fireside chat and readers can call in:
http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/118245